ZZ Performance Mid-Length Header

[Paulumbo]

I thought everyone may find this interesting. In preparation that I might need a new manifold, I've been perusing headers. ZZP has a nice looking mid length that looks like it might do some good....I pushed for more info (I'm a geek like that) and this was their reply.......


From Customer Service <CustomerService@zzperformance.com>
Sent Monday, December 17, 2007 1:55 pm
To dhostetl@emich.edu
Cc
Bcc
Subject RE: Mid Length Header
We have no flow data.
The longest primary is 14" and the shortest is 11.5"
It is a standard 4 to 1 header collector.

Turbo Tim
ZZPerformance.com

-----Original Message-----
From: dhostetl@emich.edu
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:58 AM
To: Customer Service
Subject: Mid Length Header

Do you have any technical data on the mid-length header/dp combo you
have listed? Essentailly I'm considering using 1.5" primaries on an
LSJ-reason being I'm more interested in keeping flow velocity UP which
typically helps scavenging moreso than going with 1.75" primaries
which will help pick up high end power (I rarely drive at 5000+ rpm
for extended periods). Do you have any dyno sheets for both size
primaries preferably on an LSJ (mine is stage 2)? I would like to see
some pictures of the collector-inside to view how well the area is
blended. What is the tolerance on the primary tube length? The
website says "14 inch average primary length" and "Near equal length
primaries". How did you arrive at using around 14 inches? Do you
have any flow VELOCITY data for the header and downpipe connected
(this would be KEY for me)? I'm not AS interested in total flow. I
look forward to hearing from you soon.

[skoshi130]

So are they not testing the product or did they lose the dyno sheet?

[bc3tech]

So are they not testing the product or did they lose the dyno sheet?
sounds to me like they just designed and built it. no testing.

[Paulumbo]

That's right peeps. They randomly picked a tube diameter and length and built it and ask you for your hard earned money. If you look at ZZ's website they claim HP gains-if they have no data to back that up, how valid are those "claims"? I posted that not because I wanted to slam ZZP, but rather to prove a point of asking to see the justification of mods. I found it interesting at a minimum.

[bc3tech]

truthfully, though, they could have dyno-tested the header/dp and gotten the "hp claims" that way, w/o ever having true flow data.... :shrug:

[Hyperion]

Wow. This is disappointing. I've been a slobbering fool over this thing & now I don't know. A 4" difference in length isn't "near equal length".

What, in your opinion & research, is the best header, Paulumbo?

[Area47]

call pacesetter.....

[rlinbatonrouge]

I got eleventy billion hp from their parts.

[SCblkRL]

not sure how much this helps you guys on this discussion.

One of the guys in the group has this setup (ZZP midlength/hiflow cat) in his balt with a stage 2 tune, 2.9" pulley, and full GMPP Performance exhaust.

There was a dyno day that a bunch of the cars from the club went to. Dyno was Dyno Dynamics. Research found that 13% correction brought back in line with Mustang Dyno, 22% correction back to Dynojet.

He put down 220 unfactored, 249@13% or 269@22% factored. He dyno'd around 2/3pm, which was after his car sat for 3 or so hours.

Right before this run, a '04 stock RL dyno'd and put down 186 unfactored, 210@13% or 226@22% (car sat for roughly same amount of time)

Earlier in the afternoon 12pm, a balt dyno'd with stage 2, GMPP manifold and same exhaust, laid down 202 unfactored, 228@13% or 246@22% (this car had just driven 30-45 minutes up the highway and only sat for rounghly 20min.)

Again not sure how much this helps the discussion, but if more cars are needed for better comparison/accuracy, we had a total of 6 cars that dyno'd (including the 3 above)

[bc3tech]

call pacesetter.....
just make sure to get the ceramic one if u go w/ them... the non-coated one rusts like a mofo i hear.

speaking of which, i have one for a 2.2 i'll sell :)

[Paulumbo]

Wow. This is disappointing. I've been a slobbering fool over this thing & now I don't know. A 4" difference in length isn't "near equal length".

What, in your opinion & research, is the best header, Paulumbo?

I wouldn't say there's a "best" header. I wanted the smaller primaries to keep the power down low where I can use it (street). Most guys with the LSJ want the large primaries because they can get big HP gains. Where most waste their money is, those gains come in at 5000+. Sure they make huge numbers, but how often are you that high in the RPM band to use it? If I'm gonna lay down cash, then I want to be able to use it without going into the RPM stratosphere to get it (for a street car).

My advice is......ASK QUESTIONS! Decide on your application (street, race, or some compromise thereof) and buy/build accordingly. Also, look at how they got those numbers/data. A header that flows eleventygazillion cfm's is great. However, if those numbers were obtained flowing the header ONLY, what does the flow numbers drop to when the downpipe is attached (ZZP)? Then consider the rest of the exhaust, will it cause the numbers to puke? If so, what components are you going to upgrade to later on? Take a look at the K&N website and dyno graph for the LSJ cold air intake.....it makes a power increase, but at 4500-5000+ iirc-you have to ask.....How often am I that high in the RPM band? and does that increase the power where I want it to?

To answer your question.....there isn't one, necessarily. Ask before you buy-if they can't give you an answer as to how they arrived at the design specs and power gains....BEWARE! In God we trust.....everyone else must bring data.

One exhaust system I TOTALLY approve is Edubs (I think that was who). It was a complete custom fab. Expensive. Works for his application and his tune/mod level-this is what I like to see. I'd do it on my own, but rarely is my car down nor do I need a full blown exhaust like that....so I'll compromise-use the best off the shelf stuff and make the best. If Ihad to give a thumbs up to the "perfect" exhaust mod, peep out Edubs. It's made for HIS ride.

[Ahriman is BRUTAL]

i have the zzp mid-length. switched from thier shorty, and i would have to say there is a noticable increas in power in the mid rpm range.

ZZP's customer service is DOGSHIT, and that turbo tim guy is a fucking dick-hole! check out this recent sequence of emails between me and zzp:



My mid-length header/dp combo came in today... and i did not recieve a header gasket with it!!! thats pretty irritating considering my situation. I got both dp gaskets, the o2 extension, and the 2 bolts, but thats it. I need to install this header on saturday, Im sick of driving with a the busted shorty. I would like you to send me a header gasket over-nighted please. Or i will have to buy one from the dealership... is it even the same gasket as the stocker???

and for my refund should i send the broken header to:
ZZPerformance
2575 28th St. SW
Wyoming MI 49519
?

Thanks,

Ben Odoski


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry we don’t have a head to header gasket



Turbo Tim

ZZPerformance.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
sooooo.... its about $25-30 for the gasket from a dealership, can i expect an additional 25-30 back with the refund for my defective shorty header? the discription of the product does say "header and both downpipe gaskets included."

· 14 inch average primary length

· Near equal length primaries

· Available in painted, ceramic coating and stainless

· 3/8 inch flanges prevent warping and leakage

· Header and both downpipe gaskets included

· Smaller primaries for maximum power and torque on 2.2 and 2.4 applications

· Larger 1.75" primaries maximize supercharged setups

· O2 extension included

· Grade 9 downpipe bolts included

and can you please answer my other two questions... is it the same as the stock gasket, and is that the address i need to send the broken header to?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The stock gasket is reuseable.



Turbo Tim

ZZPerformance.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats great! but thats not what i asked. I purchased a header that is supposed to come with a new gasket, and i did not get everything i paid for! these short answers are rediculouse, i have never said anything but good things about zzp, but i am starting to get very irritated with this whole situation.


first you only want to give me half my money back on a deffective product, but only if i buy another header at full price, and now your giving me a hard time for asking for somthing i paid for?

and you still didnt answer my other question... IS THAT THE ADDRESS I NEED TO SEND THE SHORTY HEADER BACK TO?

You guys really know how to keep a loyal customer happy...

If my shorty header is "warrantied" as mentioned in a previouse email i would like a full refund, or a replacement, or fixed and sent back. That only seems right considering it i am no longer asking for a discount on another one of your products. right?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address:

2575 28th St. SW

Wyoming, MI 49519

Warranty:

That header if sent back would be repaired & sent back within a day or max of 2, free of charge with no hassles.



Turbo Tim

ZZPerformance.com



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

i should show you guys the exchange of about 20 emails pertaining to my busted shorty header, they are even more rediculouse! they wanted to give me $200 back on a $400 header that was only on my car for 6 months, untill i asked "so you guys only stand behind your product 100% for six months, and then only 50% after that?" .... then they started talking about fixing it under "waranty" instead! zzp makes a very nice product but they seriously suck to deal with.

when i origionally ordered my shorty header i paid for 1 day shipping cuz i needed it fast, 2 days later i had not recieved a ship notice, and when i asked about it they said "oh we dont have any high temp paint." so i had to pay the extra 100 bucks for ceramic coating, and they wouldnt give me my money back for my 1 day shipping i paid for 2 days earlier... ASSHOLES!

i need to make a buyer beware thread about zzp i think.

[bc3tech]

...i need to make a buyer beware thread about zzp i think.
sure sounds like it :cussing:

[Paulumbo]

Yeah....I think I'm never going to buy anything from ZZP.....

Let's see....shitty customer service, no technical data to support "proposed" gains nor data to support their design choices or specs....

FUCK YOU ZZP

:werd::werd::werd::werd:

[Area47]

the reason i said call pacesetter is simple. their "midlength header" is a copy, or a redone pacesetter header. just without the pacesetter welded on plate on runner number 1.


funky huh.

[Paulumbo]

the reason i said call pacesetter is simple. their "midlength header" is a copy, or a redone pacesetter header. just without the pacesetter welded on plate on runner number 1.


funky huh.

Funny thing is....when Pacesetter is pressed for tech data, no one has jumped to get back to me........

[Hyperion]

Has anyone looked into the Weapon-R header (http://weapon-r.com/english/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=572&products_id=6149)? I really don't want a shorty header so I hope someone (with good customer service) make a good mid-length.

I love the tags for this thread:
Tags: blow, donkey cock, exhaust, gay, ghey, header, homo sexuals, sucks, zz performance

[Paulumbo]

Has anyone looked into the Weapon-R header (http://weapon-r.com/english/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=572&products_id=6149)? I really don't want a shorty header so I hope someone (with good customer service) make a good mid-length.

I love the tags for this thread:
Tags: blow, donkey cock, exhaust, gay, ghey, header, homo sexuals, sucks, zz performance

I've not looked at the Weapon-R only because I don't want a shorty header-shorties are excellent breathers high in the rpm band, but low and mid range, a good manifold will out perform them.

[Hyperion]

It's not a shorty, it's a 4-2-1.

[Paulumbo]

Poop, my bad. I looked at that one-it's a decent design, however, in the info box it says "Best for Vehicles with High Lift Cams and High RPM Rev Band " which is what I don't want-although typically long tube designs as well as 4-2-1 usually picks up low/mid range power. I'll ask some questions of Weapon R......

[Area47]

Funny thing is....when Pacesetter is pressed for tech data, no one has jumped to get back to me........

keep going up the ladder.

or let me know who you spoke with, and i can kick them in the nuts

seriously. i have that power

[rlinbatonrouge]

keep going up the ladder.

or let me know who you spoke with, and i can kick them in the nuts

seriously. i have that power

It must be hard to wield that type of power responsibly.

[skoshi130]

If running the pacesetter will it be a direct bolt on to the Corsa touring exhaust or will modifications needed. I also plan on running a catalytic converter also. Do not like the sound of the engine with out

[Area47]

It must be hard to wield that type of power responsibly.

not really. sometimes, it's rather fun
:D