Why does everyone hate on the Procharger so much?

[Akai oni]

Seriously... i get flamed on the daily for aiming for a procharger build...

i dont see whats so bad about 238whp on 12psi on the stock motor... or even 267whp on 14psi on the stock motor...

everyone keeps saying that im going to be pissing my money away and that it's not efficient enough... almost 30whp off of a 2psi increase on a stock motor is pretty fuckin good...

it took nothing more than a procharger swap and a 2psi increase on a stock motor to make the kind of numbers most LSJ's make with full bolt on's, cooling mods, and a 2.8 or smaller pulley...

honestly, i don't know what the majority of the members feelings here are towards the Procharger swap... but over at RLF they completely discount that as an option saying that it's not as efficient as the TVS and blah blah blah...

personaly... im not that impressed with the TVS so far.

even tho, i dont see any negative side to the procharger, nor do i see how it's soooo inefficient like everyone says it is...

so... what's everyone here's thoughts on the Procharger? Am i the only one who thinks it's a great idea and has ALOT of potential to make big numbers? Or is everyone on RLF playing "follow the Jaguar and worship the TVS because the Jaguar said that it's god"?

Personaly, i wont spend the money on it after seeing how some people needed meth to make 300whp, or how others had 180* intake temps with just about every cooling mod but meth...
Not to mention... the only people making over 300whp with it are the one's with quite a bit done.

[Doc]

I'd build the motor and work from there. I have nothing against using a procharger, its how you were going to get there that had me wondering.
Here is what I've gathered through research...not that I can afford it right now.
had the head ported out and all ti valve trane installed. then I took stock cams and had them ground to match the evo stage cams. this will require you to run .030 shims under your lifters. then I went with 10.5 to 1 diamond pistons. You will need head studs, good head gasket, and I still haven't found an exhaust gasket that will hold.

If you are giong for the gold, get it sleeved and go with 92mm pistons. also you should get the performance crank and rods.
.....anonymous
The source later mentioned using 8.0:1 pistons....
something to think about.

[Doc]

btw...I'm very close to 300 and I'm running a 2.7....no meth, just a cobra h/e.

[bc3tech]

i don't hate on procharger at all :D

[mrphoto103]

i don't hate on procharger at all :D

duh lol

Has anyone completely and effectively done a Pro swap on a RL? I dont think so to my knowledge and is probably why people doubt on it. I dont have any expirence with them myself so I wouldnt talk shit about it. :lookaround:

We have 2 tvs's in the club and I've spent a decent amount of time with both guys. I can say that it is noticeably a better blower as far as being efficient (it stays amazingly cool). I do not think it is the be all end all and wont do it for that price, but do think that if your doing other things to the car it is a nice compliment.

Like doc said, right at and over 300 can be achieved with re doing internals and some cooling mods if done correctly. One of our members has done quite a bit of engine re tooling like cams/pistons, etc and Im eager to see him run one of the tvs guys. Put the turbo swap that we have in there too for curiosity sake. Doc, wish you could make it down for a track day. :werd:

[Akai oni]

duh lol

Has anyone completely and effectively done a Pro swap on a RL? I dont think so to my knowledge and is probably why people doubt on it. I dont have any expirence with them myself so I wouldnt talk shit about it. :lookaround:

We have 2 tvs's in the club and I've spent a decent amount of time with both guys. I can say that it is noticeably a better blower as far as being efficient (it stays amazingly cool). I do not think it is the be all end all and wont do it for that price, but do think that if your doing other things to the car it is a nice compliment.

Like doc said, right at and over 300 can be achieved with re doing internals and some cooling mods if done correctly. One of our members has done quite a bit of engine re tooling like cams/pistons, etc and Im eager to see him run one of the tvs guys. Put the turbo swap that we have in there too for curiosity sake. Doc, wish you could make it down for a track day. :werd:

They did the procharger swap on a cobalt SS/SC and managed to pull 238whp out of it @ only 12psi... they bumped the boost to 14psi and made 267whp... on a completely stock motor... the car is running 23psi, header back exhaust, and a plastic 2.4L intake manifold... and the videos of that thing prove to be pretty impressive... yet everyone on the RLF still talks shit about it even tho it's already proven to make very nice power gains with as little as just the blower...

[mrphoto103]

Hmm, didnt know that... I'll stick with the idea that some slam on it becuase of a lack of knowledge or people that have done it.

[FunkyStickman]

If I were going to do a non-eaton build, I'd consider a Procharger before a turbo swap, just for simplicity and because I like blowers. It wouldn't be hard to do, and I'd imagine it has lower outlet temps than any roots blower, from the efficiency of the compressor.

But I have no beef with Prochargers. Rock it!

[RL_Clark]

I would think it to be much more efficient than the M62, and I would agree that the massive flaming is from a combination of lack of knowledge and the current hype over the TVS. After all, everyone has been excited about the TVS compressor since at most recent when I bought my RL in November of 2006. I would think a solid build in addition to the GMPP intake mani and an LS4 throttle body with a good a2a i/c would provide you with excellent power gains and greater efficiency with only minimal boost increase. After all, isn't the heat efficiency of a centri similar to that of a turbo?

[Cat Ion]

Ignorance is a mother effer! I would lay it all down on plain ol' ignorance. There might be a shade more than a dozen die hard builders for these motors that truly know how to get uncounted amounts of horsepower. Many of them found it by doing certain things. Then all the nonners buy off that it's the only way to do it and through ignorance chide and rib people who dare to try something one off from everyone else. If you got the coin to do it and the ability and resources (brains to pick from) to make it happen, and you're willing to sacrifice your ride at the expense of doing something different - rock on! I would do the same thing if I had the coin. Look at the Victory SS project. That's Star Trek territory. Of course it prolly won't be, ahem, street legal. But you get where I'm coming from.

On a diff'rent side of the topic. I've done a little reading on centrifugals and I got the same impression that more can be attained from less boost on a CS than a roots anyday. So it seems that the CS is more efficient.

[mrphoto103]

I think another issue is that there seems to only be a few who have successfully done a swap out for something else. Some have come close and quit and some have done it with constant problems. There are a few, but by % far and in between. The turbo swap that is in our club is blowing oil everywhere and is getting ready to re do his internals.

[FunkyStickman]

After all, isn't the heat efficiency of a centri similar to that of a turbo?

It's better, actually. If the compressor is identical, the SC would make more power because there's no hot exhaust tubing anywhere near it. Granted, you'd lose most of that gain from actually driving the SC, but all other things the same, it would have lower IAT's.

[bc3tech]

isn't the heat efficiency of a centri similar to that of a turbo?

not quite sure what you mean by "heat efficiency" as a centri will generate FAR less heat than a turbo. Your IATs will be ridiculously low on a centri compared to both roots or turbo. that is just another plus of the procharger, put an FMIC in line w/ it, and you can crank that timing to no end and squeeze out every last pony. shit you can run 6psi on a procharger directly into the throttle body w/ no heat exchanger / FMIC at all w/o risk of detonation.

[MGM1979]

dude - the answer is simple...what you're experiencing with your "plans" over on RLF is why most of us who have our heads on straight and know a thing or two chose to abandon that sinking ship. Anyone who's been around that site since late '05/early '06 has seen RLF consistently decline "useful" knowledge and accurate, non-biased, incites...unfortunately, it was replaced with high school drama/BS and the likes of Alpha-type fruits.
As Steve said, the decreasing age in RL drivers has got to be a leading contributor to RLFs decline.

Don't worry about what anyone else says/thinks - if you want something, go get it...just be smart about it. In the end, who are you trying to impress, "us" or yourself?

I've never been one to say/do what others want/expect, so maybe it's easier said than done for others - I tend to hate "conformists" and enjoy "making waves" in an attempt to discredit the "lemmings"...


Back to cars, I'm curious to see what you can do with it - and hope to see it done right.

[bc3tech]

I've never been one to say/do what others want/expect, so maybe it's easier said than done for others - I tend to hate "conformists" and enjoy "making waves" in an attempt to discredit the "lemmings"...a-men there brotha. that's why i trick saturns and not hondas. do something different for once :p

[mrphoto103]

a-men there brotha. that's why i trick saturns and not hondas. do something different for once :p

+1 to you and Matt. I get shit all the time for doing what I want to do to MY car....which btw I do for myself and my liking. I understand not everyone wants to paint their stuff blue, ok...to each their own. Im not a power monger by any means, but I did have to threaten to ban someone over there becuase they were being an extreme asshat about it and it got really old.

Best I can do is to remove trolls and close ignorant threads. I've done both plenty to try to make it better. Eh, I'm not much in to drama (hate drama) so I dont get as riled up over it as some.

[rlinbatonrouge]

The simple truth comes down to one point. Most people don't even realize what the whole problem about the procharger is. Allow me to explain:










































3kool used to have one, and no one really likes him.

[bc3tech]

+1 to you and Matt. I get shit all the time for doing what I want to do to MY car....which btw I do for myself and my liking. exactly. ppl say "what you procharged a Saturn?" and i say "yeah what do you work on, hondas? DSMs? cool, you're just like every other "Fast & Furious" prepubescent teen. :nofu:
I understand not everyone wants to paint their stuff bluewhat?! what kind of retard doesn't want to paint their shit blue! blue FTW! :D

[Akai oni]

not quite sure what you mean by "heat efficiency" as a centri will generate FAR less heat than a turbo. Your IATs will be ridiculously low on a centri compared to both roots or turbo. that is just another plus of the procharger, put an FMIC in line w/ it, and you can crank that timing to no end and squeeze out every last pony. shit you can run 6psi on a procharger directly into the throttle body w/ no heat exchanger / FMIC at all w/o risk of detonation.

Took the words right out of my mouth...

not having an exhaust housing attached to the compressor certainly helps with temps... you figure... the only air flowing through the blower is cold air from atmospere... the procharger compresses it then forces it into the engine... there's no hetaing factor at all... acctualy, i remember kevin from speed mafia telling me over the phone that AAS tuning's Procharged cobalt could be run hard for a few passes at 21psi and afterwards the blower was still cool to the touch.

the Procharged cobalt's AIT's were somthing absurd... like 78* @ 21psi... and the IDC's were at like 65% on 60's @ 23psi with a 10.8:1 AFR.

Alpha used that saying that the car wasn't making any power and that's why the IDC's were so low...

my explaination is: the fact that the Procharger is making sooooo much less heat and using ALOT less parasitic drag than the roots blowers... it's not using so much fuel to do what it needs to do.

[bc3tech]

Took the words right out of my mouth...

not having an exhaust housing attached to the compressor certainly helps with temps... you figure... the only air flowing through the blower is cold air from atmospere... the procharger compresses it then forces it into the engine... there's no hetaing factor at all...close... compressing air heats it up ;)
acctualy, i remember kevin from speed mafia telling me over the phone that AAS tuning's Procharged cobalt could be run hard for a few passes at 21psi and afterwards the blower was still cool to the touch.i could run my blower to 6grand @ 12psi hard hard hard and get out and put my hand on it. I showed this to Eco-mod the one day he came to my place and we did some highway runs against his redline. got outta the car, popped the hood, and had him come over and put his hand on it :D
the Procharged cobalt's AIT's were somthing absurd... like 78* @ 21psi... and the IDC's were at like 65% on 60's @ 23psi with a 10.8:1 AFR.

Alpha used that saying that the car wasn't making any power and that's why the IDC's were so low...

my explaination is: the fact that the Procharger is making sooooo much less heat and using ALOT less parasitic drag than the roots blowers... it's not using so much fuel to do what it needs to do.
not quite sure how to explain the IDC's... by the math a colder intake charge will require more air to maintain a particular AFR because colder air is more dense. that's why ppl go lean in the winter and have to richen up their tunes. it's also why cold air makes f/i cars more powerful ;) leans out your mixture just a bit, gives you a tad bit more oxygen and hoohah. also you'll see higher psi in colder temps.

[mrphoto103]

what kind of retard doesn't want to paint their shit blue! blue FTW! :D

I knew there had to be a reason I liked you lol

[Blue04RedLine]

You guys really don't like alpha, and I don't quite get it. Same reason I don't get why you don't like the tvs, but hey, being I am apparently a lemming for liking it, I expect the flaming to come from you and bc. The reason no body likes the procharger is because you already have a roots blower, and instead of upgrading to a more efficient one, you're changing to a type of induction that accomplishes bringing the worst of the two other types of f/i into one unit. You get the lag from the compressor and still the parasitic loss from being belt driven. You're picking and choosing numbers for the TVS that make it look the worse, including the 180* intake temps. The guy who posted that (ralliartist I believe) even said there was a problem with the car that was then fixed (even though once he said who's car it was it looked like even more bs completely). As much power as you think you're picking up, you're losing as much in torque. You keep saying the power increase for the tvs isn't worth the money, but how much is swapping to the procharger going to cost? You need the new intake mani (which btw, is not the best designed thing for running f/i, especially being plastic) along with the blower, and custom brackets to mount the thing. How much money is it going to take just to get the pc on the car, not including the injectors or anything to tune, just the procharger, brackets, and intake mani?

[bc3tech]

As much power as you think you're picking up, you're losing as much in torque.and what are you doing now w/ the tq that you lost? answer: spinning your tires
custom brackets to mount the thing.speedmafia will furnish them ultra-cheap i'm sure How much money is it going to take just to get the pc on the car, not including the injectors or anything to tune, just the procharger, brackets, and intake mani?only variable there is the intake mani. procharger is $2900, bracket is, well, have to ask SMP. install takes all of maybe 3 hr.

now we just have to wait for another month for you to decide you want to come over here and cock off some more to hear your reply.

[JayCizzo]

You guys really don't like alpha, and I don't quite get it. Same reason I don't get why you don't like the tvs, but hey, being I am apparently a lemming for liking it, I expect the flaming to come from you and bc.

Because he's a closeminded hypocrite. Because he's a mod people follow whatever he says. If he doesn't agree with something he calls you an idiot and whores up the thread. Regardless of what route someone wants to go, they should not get berrated for wanting to try something new. Everyone has their theories but until someone actualy tries it that's all they are.

BTW, I'm not biased for/against either the TVS or PC.

[MGM1979]

I'm with Jason - even before I left, AJ was a pompous Ass...standard for a kid his age who thinks he's got more game than he really does (as is evident by his "who's hotter" thread...). If you like him, fine - I'm not gonna like you any more/less for it. Act as his "mouthpiece" and then we've got an issue. Now that he's got "powa" - he's no different than the stereotypical power-tripping cop we've all run into at one time or another.

Re: the procharger - I lean towards the TVS, just b/c I'm a fan of my current blower and would like to improve upon IT while keeping as much of the original "essence" of the car as I can (same reason I won't go turbo). I'm not willing to drop that kind of money on EITHER setup, at this point though, b/c I still believe I've got more room with my own setup. If someone wants to jump the gun a little and try something new/different (or with their own twist), more power to them. But just b/c someone (AJ) has a "rank" under his name, does not give them the right to flame anyone and everyone who disagrees with HIS opinion - afterall, opinions are like assholes. Unfortunately for the RLF community, he's got more than he knows what to do with...

[Blue04RedLine]

I just thought it was funny that half this thread was actually about prochargers and half was about alpha. I don't need to act as his mouthpiece or anything else, but unlike just about everyone on here, I actually know him personally, so I have gotten to know him off the boards and actually see a real personality, not just an online snippet of it.

and what are you doing now w/ the tq that you lost? answer: spinning your tires
You don't spin your tires across the board though, and when you make 230+whp but only a MAX of 170-ish wtq, you're losing alot more throughout the entire rev range.

speedmafia will furnish them ultra-cheap i'm sureonly variable there is the intake mani. procharger is $2900, bracket is, well, have to ask SMP. install takes all of maybe 3 hr.
So if I understand that part right, $2900 for the procharger is ultra cheap? If it comes out to that, or even slightly less, it's still more expensive than the TVS swap so I don't understand how complaining about the price of the TVS really means anything. And also, he keeps putting numbers out there of what this and that tvs car ran, mixing up people's numbers making it look worse to himself as an option, but he's never once put out numbers on what the procharged cobalt is now running. He keeps saying how much it's boosting and what it boosted at this level so it "HAS" to be at this level now. But why? Why hasn't it been back to the dyno yet if it's been on the car for at least a month?

now we just have to wait for another month for you to decide you want to come over here and cock off some more to hear your reply.

What the fuck is that exactly supposed to mean? I'm not allowed on your anti-rlf board because I'm still a regular there or because Alpha is a friend of mine or because I had a different opinion on here? Sorry I stopped visiting every single day, but there were less than 300 new posts in the month or so I hadn't been here. Sorry for not being a regular, but I didn't think that I wasn't fucking welcome to post. Nevermind, I figured it out. It's because I don't particularly like the idea of going procharger on the LSJ and don't see the benefits of it over turbo on most other applications. That's gotta be it, right?

[bc3tech]

You don't spin your tires across the board though, and when you make 230+whp but only a MAX of 170-ish wtq, you're losing alot more throughout the entire rev range.right, you spin your tires at low rpm, which is why roots blowers belong on RWD cars, not FWD ones. the procharger builds boost in line w/ RPM, so you get USABLE torque instead of wheel hop for axle breakage. the tq curve on a procharger isn't lower across the board.but he's never once put out numbers on what the procharged cobalt is now running. He keeps saying how much it's boosting and what it boosted at this level so it "HAS" to be at this level now. But why? Why hasn't it been back to the dyno yet if it's been on the car for at least a month? why don't you go ask him that. point was the stock to stock setup is better.
What the fuck is that exactly supposed to mean? I'm not allowed on your anti-rlf board because I'm still a regular there or because Alpha is a friend of mine or because I had a different opinion on here? Sorry I stopped visiting every single day, but there were less than 300 new posts in the month or so I hadn't been here. Sorry for not being a regular, but I didn't think that I wasn't fucking welcome to post. Nevermind, I figured it out. It's because I don't particularly like the idea of going procharger on the LSJ and don't see the benefits of it over turbo on most other applications. That's gotta be it, right?it's supposed to mean that you're now only posting over here when you're butthurt about something we're saying about RLF. and i'm cool w/ that cuz once this is over i won't have to read your mindless drivel for a while.

[JayCizzo]

I just thought it was funny that half this thread was actually about prochargers and half was about alpha.

Let's not exaggerate. I went back and read through the thread. There were two posts that referenced Alpha and the rest had a lot of good technical comments. Akai oni asked why everyone on RLF hates on the procharger so he got some opinions as to why that is.

Same reason I don't get why you don't like the tvs, but hey, being I am apparently a lemming for liking it, I expect the flaming to come from you and bc.

Additionally you assumed everyone here hates the TVS which is not true. Your first post here in quite awhile seemed like it was trying to instigate some drama. Not sure if that was your intention, but if it was, mission accomplished.

Either way it appears Akai oni has made up his mind and is not looking to be swayed but rather supported in his choice. So maybe it's not the best choice, but it's his choice to make. Maybe it will payoff, maybe it won't and it will be a lesson learned.

[MGM1979]

uhh...hey guys, can't we all just get along here?

I'm not trying to bash anyone (accept maybe AJ, LoL)...and to be honest, if you've gotten to know him and he's a good guy, then cool. Until I've had that experience, I (and the rest of us) have to go by his reputation and persona that he conveys through the forums...not fair, maybe...but if he's being a dick or an ass, or trying to be funny (and b/c we don't know him, we don't get it), then that's his problem - not mine.

back on point - to each his own, right?

[FunkyStickman]

Lots of talk going on here... but JayCizzo is right on the money. We don't hate on the TVS here, like people at RLF are doing with the Procharger. Everybody knows it will work, but there's question as to how well it will work.

If I recall, there's still very few numbers out on the TVS, and even fewer on the Twinscrew and Procharger... why is that, exactly? Maybe because the small handful of people who tried them had a hard time either getting them to do what they wanted, or getting people to believe what they'd done.

If I saw fifty people all try the TVS and Procharger on their cars, and most of them said the TVS was better with data to prove it, then I'd be fairly convinced. But we don't have that. Even if a couple of people got it working well, there's too many variables to say it's always better or worse for a given situation.

[Blue04RedLine]

right, you spin your tires at low rpm, which is why roots blowers belong on RWD cars, not FWD ones. the procharger builds boost in line w/ RPM, so you get USABLE torque instead of wheel hop for axle breakage. the tq curve on a procharger isn't lower across the board.
Well, same question stands then, where is the dyno to show this? All he talks is pure dyno numbers which is bullshit comparison as is, but then the car hasn't even been on the dyno in it's current state but he's expecting it to be at a certain level under x amount of boost because it was at a certain level at y boost. And the term usable torque really refers to the driver as much as the car. Tell me mr. tvs canada (can't remember his s/n) wasn't making usable torque on his car with the M62, and yet wasn't breaking things because he knew HOW to use it. If all you want to do is stomp on the throttle then torque HAS to be lower in order to use it, but if you adapt your driving technique to the car, then you can make alot more torque wherever in the powerband and still actually make use of it.

why don't you go ask him that. point was the stock to stock setup is better.

I WAS asking him that, but then you felt like responding. This is HIS topic and thus I felt like I WAS responding to him.
it's supposed to mean that you're now only posting over here when you're butthurt about something we're saying about RLF. and i'm cool w/ that cuz once this is over i won't have to read your mindless drivel for a while.

I didn't come here BECAUSE of anything on RLF, and me being here has nothing to DO with RLF. I came here because I had caught up reading new posts on RLF, 6S, IF, and my UCF Car Club and had extra time to catch up on boards like this and SkyRoadster where I only read when I have time. I thought I posted serious, relevant questions along with a few opinions and wasn't as much of a waste of space as other people on the interwebernets. Guess I was wrong? Again though, you never had a problem with me before I said I didn't like the procharger, especially for the LSJ application. Imagine that.

Lots of talk going on here... but JayCizzo is right on the money. We don't hate on the TVS here, like people at RLF are doing with the Procharger. Everybody knows it will work, but there's question as to how well it will work.

If I recall, there's still very few numbers out on the TVS, and even fewer on the Twinscrew and Procharger... why is that, exactly? Maybe because the small handful of people who tried them had a hard time either getting them to do what they wanted, or getting people to believe what they'd done.

If I saw fifty people all try the TVS and Procharger on their cars, and most of them said the TVS was better with data to prove it, then I'd be fairly convinced. But we don't have that. Even if a couple of people got it working well, there's too many variables to say it's always better or worse for a given situation.
I know you guys don't hate the TVS, but Boosthard does seem to really think it's not shit, and no better than the M62 which is completely UNtrue, if he looks at all the numbers and not just mixing and matching the ones that make it seem to look the worst, including "facts" being brought up about a mystery TVS car that might not even exist.



Let's not exaggerate. I went back and read through the thread. There were two posts that referenced Alpha and the rest had a lot of good technical comments. Akai oni asked why everyone on RLF hates on the procharger so he got some opinions as to why that is.
I wasn't trying to exaggerate, but I also didn't read the entire thread over so I know I just combined things that people said on here and RLF, being it's the same people saying the same things so I guess it seemed like there was more of it total than there was

Additionally you assumed everyone here hates the TVS which is not true. Your first post here in quite awhile seemed like it was trying to instigate some drama. Not sure if that was your intention, but if it was, mission accomplished.

Either way it appears Akai oni has made up his mind and is not looking to be swayed but rather supported in his choice. So maybe it's not the best choice, but it's his choice to make. Maybe it will payoff, maybe it won't and it will be a lesson learned.
I didn't come over here with intentions on doing anything other than reading and posting, so instigating something was not on the to-do list. Like I said, I came over because I had time to read again for the first time in a while, and this was just one of the only threads that i felt like posting in. I didn't feel like posting in the whoring threads or lunch thread, and this was one of the only real threads that I hadn't read previously. I posted in at least one other thread because I just felt like posting. I really only wanted to understand what exactly makes the procharger the best option. Price doesn't seem to make it one, ease of installation doesn't seem to make it one, and powerband produced doesn't seem to make it one either. So I just asked. It would have remained civil if BC hadn't chimed in just because.

[Akai oni]

LOL... and just like the rest of the closed minded tools you fail to read a damn word ive posted about the Procharger... they made 177wtq on a quickly done, makeshift tune, just so the car would run right... the AFR's were insane (like in the 10's) and timing was nowhere near what it could have run...

honestly, for a bone stock motor on a fucked up tune... lol, 238whp on 12psi isn't bad at all... do some serious tuning and the TQ numbers will even out to a respectable number.

ive posted, reposted, double posted and posted that information again, a million times, yet... everyone keeps saying "Well who cares if it made 238whp, it only made 177wtq" blah blah blah...

so you sir, along with the rest of the lemmings are guilty of the EXACT same thing you are accusing me of.

hello pot... meet kettle.

Oh yeah... ad a procharger isn't that expensive... (At least not for me anyway :D) not to mention... they run cooler than a turbo and have WAAAAAY less parasitic loss than ANY roots blower out there... you can't turn the rotors on a roots blower with a single finger can you?

lol, you can turn the shaft on a centrifigal blower with one finger...

honestly... what do you know about the Prochargers? im guessing absolutely jack shit... you're making assuptions that just because its still belt driven that it must have insane parasitic loss like a roots blower and horrible lag like a huge turbo...

Wrong!!! if Correctly sized to the motor and setup and turbo will spool pretty quickly, and the whole idea behind turbo lag is the fact that the exhaust impeller has to have enough exhaust gas flow to get it moving fast enough to turn the compressor wheel to create boost... with the procharger... lol, there's still no waiting for exhaust gas to spool the compressor, only RPM which means minimal lag.
Because there is no bulky rotors or heavy shafts to turn, only a small gear... the parasitic loss is minimal at best... not to mention the boost comes on with RPM and from what ive been told... full boost is achieved by 3000rpm... since when do you race below 3000rpm? not to mention it leaves plenty of room down low to get a decent launch without roasting tires or suffering from wheel hop...

Another cool little tidbit to add... go make a few hard passes then put your hand on your blower... lol, it's gonna melt your fucking skin off, same thing with a turbo... hot side or compressor side, it's going to be pretty fucking hot because it's powered by scalding hot exhaust gas.

the procharger is still cool to the touch after a few hard passes... which means lower Intake temps, more timing capabilities, and less fuel to make more power.

i dont know what makes it so hard for people to wrap thier heads around this concept...

Wait... yes i do, IGNORANCE...

instead of making up fanatsy reasons to dislike the Procharger or creating some off the wall theory to discredit it... especialy without any factual evidence... do some fucking research and stop listening to what the crowd says they "Know" because they obviously don't know shit.

And im unimpressed with the TVS because anyone making close to or a tad over 300whp has a mod list as long as my arm and it's taking 20+psi to get there...

if im not mistaken the whole idea behind FI efficiency is using less boost, and less fuel to make your power while keeping heat as low as possible... a roots blower, no matter how "Great" it is... will never be efficient in my eyes... you lose power to make power, you create so much heat, what power you do have is unusable after a few passes or in hot weather, and because of thr parasitic loss you use more fuel to make power...

i figure you get the best of both worlds with the procharger...

the linear power/tq curve of a blower, less lag than a turbo, less parasitic loss than a roots blower, and less heat than both, plus the added ability to throw insane timing at the bitch while using much less fuel.


Im pretty sure i got my info straight on this but if anyone has anything to correct or add please chime in as im stil learning about the Centi blowers...

[Blue04RedLine]

LOL... and just like the rest of the closed minded tools you fail to read a damn word ive posted about the Procharger... they made 177wtq on a quickly done, makeshift tune, just so the car would run right... the AFR's were insane (like in the 10's) and timing was nowhere near what it could have run...

honestly, for a bone stock motor on a fucked up tune... lol, 238whp on 12psi isn't bad at all... do some serious tuning and the TQ numbers will even out to a respectable number.

ive posted, reposted, double posted and posted that information again, a million times, yet... everyone keeps saying "Well who cares if it made 238whp, it only made 177wtq" blah blah blah...

so you sir, along with the rest of the lemmings are guilty of the EXACT same thing you are accusing me of.

hello pot... meet kettle.
Um, what exactly am I accusing you of? And just because the tune was quick doesn't mean it was hard to do or fucked up in any way. If it's "boosting" the same amount as stock, it's moving the same amount of air as stock, and thus doesn't need anything better than a stock tune in order for the computer to work with the procharger. I never said it WASN'T efficient, I just said that the TVS is more efficient than you believe or wish to see. What kind of airflow do you think you're going to need from the pc in order to hit over 300whp? The people you keep looking at from a PURELY dyno number standpoint making "just over" 300whp were dynoing in the 250's WITH THE EXACT SAME MOD LIST running the M62 with 2.5's and 2.6's. They strapped on the TVS with their own makeshift tunes and gained well over 50whp on an obviously lower reading dyno, running less airflow through the motor. Instead of boosting 20+ with their maxxed out M62's, they were running around 15-18 and making over 50whp more. How does that not show the difference in efficiency between the M62 and TVS? I just don't understand what exactly you were expecting to see when one was bolted onto and LSJ.

Oh yeah... ad a procharger isn't that expensive... (At least not for me anyway :D) not to mention... they run cooler than a turbo and have WAAAAAY less parasitic loss than ANY roots blower out there... you can't turn the rotors on a roots blower with a single finger can you?

lol, you can turn the shaft on a centrifigal blower with one finger...
You know, I've never taken my blower off and just tried to turn it, so I don't know if you could spin the rotors with one finger, but I would imagine with no resistance (ie, off the car) you wouldn't have much of an issue. And how "inexpensive" is this supposed to be when compared to the TVS system?

honestly... what do you know about the Prochargers? im guessing absolutely jack shit... you're making assuptions that just because its still belt driven that it must have insane parasitic loss like a roots blower and horrible lag like a huge turbo...
I never ONCE said that it had insane parasitic loss or horrible lag, but it DOES have BOTH. Anything that is linked to the motor building rpms is INHERENTLY laggy and anything that is belt driven is INHERENTLY going to have parasitic loss, no matter "how much" of each. And that is exactly what I was saying earlier.

Wrong!!! if Correctly sized to the motor and setup and turbo will spool pretty quickly, and the whole idea behind turbo lag is the fact that the exhaust impeller has to have enough exhaust gas flow to get it moving fast enough to turn the compressor wheel to create boost... with the procharger... lol, there's still no waiting for exhaust gas to spool the compressor, only RPM which means minimal lag.
Because there is no bulky rotors or heavy shafts to turn, only a small gear... the parasitic loss is minimal at best... not to mention the boost comes on with RPM and from what ive been told... full boost is achieved by 3000rpm... since when do you race below 3000rpm? not to mention it leaves plenty of room down low to get a decent launch without roasting tires or suffering from wheel hop...
Have you ever been in a car actually running a procharger? The powerband is going to be very similar to a turbo because it IS a turbo, just being belt driven instead of exhaust driven, and yes, I understand how both work from mechanical aspects. Like I said, driving skill goes a LONG way in determining what power levels will roast tires and wheel hop. Some people never deal with it because they've learned the car, and others will just keep saying it's the car's fault because of it's powerband or blah blah blah.

Another cool little tidbit to add... go make a few hard passes then put your hand on your blower... lol, it's gonna melt your fucking skin off, same thing with a turbo... hot side or compressor side, it's going to be pretty fucking hot because it's powered by scalding hot exhaust gas.

the procharger is still cool to the touch after a few hard passes... which means lower Intake temps, more timing capabilities, and less fuel to make more power.
Technically, like BC said earlier, cooling down the intake charge will actually require MORE fuel to get the right afr's because you'll be getting more oxygen per cubic cm thus needing more fuel to combine with the extra oxygen. Temperature is one thing, but fuel is related to the temp of the intake charge, not the temp of the compressor, which is where intercoolers come into play. Compressing air in ANY manner will create heat, obviously some manners more than others, but that's just simple chemistry with laws of gasses.

i dont know what makes it so hard for people to wrap thier heads around this concept...

Wait... yes i do, IGNORANCE...

instead of making up fanatsy reasons to dislike the Procharger or creating some off the wall theory to discredit it... especialy without any factual evidence... do some fucking research and stop listening to what the crowd says they "Know" because they obviously don't know shit.

And im unimpressed with the TVS because anyone making close to or a tad over 300whp has a mod list as long as my arm and it's taking 20+psi to get there...

if im not mistaken the whole idea behind FI efficiency is using less boost, and less fuel to make your power while keeping heat as low as possible... a roots blower, no matter how "Great" it is... will never be efficient in my eyes... you lose power to make power, you create so much heat, what power you do have is unusable after a few passes or in hot weather, and because of thr parasitic loss you use more fuel to make power...

i figure you get the best of both worlds with the procharger...

the linear power/tq curve of a blower, less lag than a turbo, less parasitic loss than a roots blower, and less heat than both, plus the added ability to throw insane timing at the bitch while using much less fuel.


Im pretty sure i got my info straight on this but if anyone has anything to correct or add please chime in as im stil learning about the Centi blowers...
I'm not "listening to the crowd" as you say, I actually understand the mechanical and physical characteristics of different types of compressors and the way they interact with the motor and it's powerband. You "guessing" I don't know shit just because I don't like the idea of it is pretty off the mark. I'm not some teenager with my first car and I'm not a moron like others. I'm not making up "off the wall theories" to discredit anything, I'm using logical facts on the way these things work to try and understand them. You're the one who seems to be making up fantasy facts about things, and it seems you expect alot out of this procharger build and have yet to see any actual results, or even experience a car with this type of compressor. If you plan on using one, shouldn't you at least ride in a car that has one first? Maybe a comparable 2.0L 4 cyl motor or something. Find someone who has the TRD supercharged TC and ride with them, see how it feels. Get some fucking dyno numbers from the balt running the pc now at his 22psi or whatever it's on. I've said it over and over in this thread, show me where his numbers and graphs are posted along with logs he's taken during runs. Let me look at those so I can try and figure out where this thing becomes a better option than the tvs or a turbo. SHOW ME why its worth the money, don't just sit there and yell at me trying to tell me why you "think" it might be at some point.

[MGM1979]

uhhh....hey guys...I've had my blower off several times, and other cars' blowers as well...the rotors are NOT that difficult to turn - not sure where you picked that information up from, but that's a dead wrong assumption there.

Anyway we could curb this back n forth bantor - I'm starting to feel like I'm over at RLF, but with a blue skin on the site.

[rlinbatonrouge]

I just would like to add one thing.

Blue, you have done an amazing job of multi-quoting.

[bc3tech]

I WAS asking him that, but then you felt like responding. This is HIS topic and thus I felt like I WAS responding to him.him = guy w/ procharger installed. whom you are not asking anything.

Again though, you never had a problem with me before I said I didn't like the procharger, especially for the LSJ application. Imagine that.wrong. didn't have a prob w/ you until you became an AJ fanboi
ease of installation doesn't seem to make it one, and powerband produced doesn't seem to make it one either. So I just asked. It would have remained civil if BC hadn't chimed in just because.http://www.sweetwaterhsa.com/~terryc/Waambulance.jpg
I never ONCE said that it had insane parasitic loss or horrible lag, but it DOES have BOTH. and my point still stands. you can't do shit w/ the tq you're getting <2000rpms anyway.Have you ever been in a car actually running a procharger? yes. :p

[RL_Clark]

I don't know what we're yelling about!!

But seriously, I don't see any reason in arguing over this stuff on the internet. akai obviously wants to try this out, and he may be on to something. Through minor research, I think that a centrifugal blower may really be more efficient than other options including our stock blowers (which isn't saying much).

The talk of the plastic intake mani...why not go with the sheet metal manifold? Anyhow, I still give props to akai for venturing into something different. Whether it proves to be beneficial or not doesn't really matter (of course, I'm not the one spending the money, so it's easier for me to say that). The most I can say is...good luck.

[Blue04RedLine]

Once again, you're answering things aimed at boosthard as if I was asking the question to you.

wrong. didn't have a prob w/ you until you became an AJ fanboi
I'm not an alpha "fanboi" I'm just an alpha friend. I don't jump on people's dicks over the interwebs and I don't usually judge people from just talking to them on forums either.
and my point still stands. you can't do shit w/ the tq you're getting <2000rpms anyway.
My point still stands as well that with greater driving skill adapting to the car, you would be able to do something with that torque wherever in the powerband, including off launch.

[bc3tech]

...
My point still stands as well that with greater driving skill adapting to the car, you would be able to do something with that torque wherever in the powerband, including off launch.
gotchya. so pro drivers w/ pro parts & a crew got it down pat. agreed.

now how about we talk about real-world scenarios

[Blue04RedLine]

I gave you a real world situation. Not pro, real world. My-bd on rlf has learned how to drive his car, which is why he can run 13.1 with the mods he had. Track slut down here ran 13.5@103 iirc and he did it in the florida heat on street tires running a stage 2 tune with a 2.9" pulley. How did he do that? He cut a very low 2.0 60' and actually launched the car "properly" and managed to use all the torque he was producing. Lancer, remember him on rlf? He ran a 14.2 BONE STOCK because he could use the torque to get off the line without spinning, because he had the skill and knew what he was doing.

[bc3tech]

man i wish i'd have gone to the track w/ the procharger so i could show a sub 2.0 60' and end this right now.

[RL_Clark]

I run 2.0s 60' times, but I'm only pulling 14.1 on a stage II. Of course, that was when I had a cracked head, and now my car doesn't run right at all. I think I can still pull the nice 60' times, but my 1/4 time would be in the 15s range.

[Blue04RedLine]

man i wish i'd have gone to the track w/ the procharger so i could show a sub 2.0 60' and end this right now.

I'm not trying to say that a procharged car CAN'T pull that, what I'm saying is that a roots type fwd car without a pro driver CAN do it, which was your argument. You said the torque does no good down low and I'm showing you why it does, when a person knows what they're doing with it. That was my point all along when I kept bringing up driving skill.

[Akai oni]

I gave you a real world situation. Not pro, real world. My-bd on rlf has learned how to drive his car, which is why he can run 13.1 with the mods he had. Track slut down here ran 13.5@103 iirc and he did it in the florida heat on street tires running a stage 2 tune with a 2.9" pulley. How did he do that? He cut a very low 2.0 60' and actually launched the car "properly" and managed to use all the torque he was producing. Lancer, remember him on rlf? He ran a 14.2 BONE STOCK because he could use the torque to get off the line without spinning, because he had the skill and knew what he was doing.

Ummm... Mybd even stated that he was on hoosiers when he ran that 13.1 pass.

and track slut was using traction mods and a very sticky street tire like BFG KDW's if i can recall correctly... Street tires can be pretty effective if you are using the right ones. i have the KDW's and at my TQ level they work nicely... im pretty sure id need DR's with another 50whp or so tho...

As for Lancer, he was in a bone stock RL which usualy makes around 180-195wtq, not to mention he owns a comp package with the LSD...


Here's the all time best 60' time list from RLF...


ALL IONS, BEST 60'
1.) socalsilverrl - 1.740 DOT Slicks
1.) my_bd 1.861 - DOT Slicks
2.) clownhair 1.890 - BFG Drag Radials
3.) mgm1979 2.023 - Hoosier QTP's
4.) Track Slut 2.069 - Street Tires
5.) ptparker 2.118 - Street Tires
6.) Mase 2.137 - Street Tires
7.) Street Dreamz 2.14 - Street Tires
8.) lancer 2.192 - Street Tires
9.) sidejam 2.217 - Street Tires
10.) Sp00ner 2.222 - Street Tires

Only 10 members (the top 4 of which were using slicks or DR's) have a good enough 60' to make the list out of the hundreds upon hondreds of members of RLF.com...

so... what point were you trying to prove again?

[Blue04RedLine]

Ummm... Mybd even stated that he was on hoosiers when he ran that 13.1 pass.
I know he was. My point was about the time he ran because of his driving skill. Even with the radials (not slicks I don't believe) he hasn't snapped an axle, because he knows what the fuck he's doing when driving. Some people are popping axles with stage 2 because they don't know how to drive, and that was my point with my_bd.
and track slut was using traction mods and a very sticky street tire like BFG KDW's if i can recall correctly... Street tires can be pretty effective if you are using the right ones. i have the KDW's and at my TQ level they work nicely... im pretty sure id need DR's with another 50whp or so tho...
He had traction bars and I'm not surf if he had the KDW's when he made the pass or not. Either way, the KDW's are no more a drag tire than the stock lops, so not sure what the point is there.
As for Lancer, he was in a bone stock RL which usualy makes around 180-195wtq, not to mention he owns a comp package with the LSD...
And you'll be making more torque than that by the time you're done, but again, my point was that with the proper driving skill, things can be done when they seem "impossible" to others with lower driving skills.
Here's the all time best 60' time list from RLF...

Only 10 members (the top 4 of which were using slicks or DR's) have a good enough 60' to make the list out of the hundreds upon hondreds of members of RLF.com...

so... what point were you trying to prove again?
So, you give me the list of the top 10 RL's and tell me that only 10 people were good enough to get on it? What sense does that make. It's MEANT to be only 10 people, the top 10. 2.0x-2.22 were all street tires, and it doesn't tell you what mods they had when they pulled that time. It's much harder to do obviously with the more power, but I know slut did it with his stage 2+ setup and believe mase was running just about 280whp and expected amounts of torque when he ran what he did.

[RL_Clark]

I was on drag radials with t-bars. Nitto NT-01 was my weapon of choice.

[Akai oni]

I know he was. My point was about the time he ran because of his driving skill. Even with the radials (not slicks I don't believe) he hasn't snapped an axle, because he knows what the fuck he's doing when driving. Some people are popping axles with stage 2 because they don't know how to drive, and that was my point with my_bd.

He had traction bars and I'm not surf if he had the KDW's when he made the pass or not. Either way, the KDW's are no more a drag tire than the stock lops, so not sure what the point is there.
As for Lancer, he was in a bone stock RL which usualy makes around 180-195wtq, not to mention he owns a comp package with the LSD...
And you'll be making more torque than that by the time you're done, but again, my point was that with the proper driving skill, things can be done when they seem "impossible" to others with lower driving skills.

So, you give me the list of the top 10 RL's and tell me that only 10 people were good enough to get on it? What sense does that make. It's MEANT to be only 10 people, the top 10. 2.0x-2.22 were all street tires, and it doesn't tell you what mods they had when they pulled that time. It's much harder to do obviously with the more power, but I know slut did it with his stage 2+ setup and believe mase was running just about 280whp and expected amounts of torque when he ran what he did.

LOL... saying that the KDW's are no more of a drag tire than the stock lops is a retarded statement...

have yoo not compared how hard the rubber is on the stock lops compared to the KDW's... i can indent a mark into my KDW's by gently pressing on them with my fingernail... the lops, lol... dont get me started, the difference is huge and i noticed it the first time i drove with the KDW's, i have about 20% tread life left on em now and they still hook waaaay better than the stock lops ever did...

have you seen the difference in tread pattern? that alone will show you how much of a difference there is between the two.

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/dunlop/du_sp_sport_9000_ci1_l.jpg

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/bfg/bfg_gforce_ta_kdw2_ci1_l.jpg

the stocl SP9000's only scored an 8.5 dry traction rating compared to the KDW's 9.2 dry traction rating...

that's a pretty big margin there bud.

[Blue04RedLine]

I have the KDW's, I know the difference in the way they drive. But neither is designed to be a drag tire. The lops are seemingly better around corners but the KDW's are seemingly better for straight line. I say again though, neither one no matter how tire rack rates them, is meant for drag racing. Just because it grabs better doesn't mean it's meant for it. I don't know about you, but I can break any tires loose in an LSJ car in first gear short of radials or slicks if I try. The biggest reason the KDW's tread pattern looks like that is because of the way it works in the rain, same with the dunlops. Dry grip in a straight line has to do with the tire compound quite a bit more than the tread pattern, thus the reason slicks dont have any tread. The tread breaks up the contact patch so the tire with the biggest contact patch will grip better in the straight line.

[MGM1979]

wow - I forgot about that list...can't believe I'm still in the top 5 - I just impressed myself, AGAIN. LoL

[Blue04RedLine]

wow - I forgot about that list...can't believe I'm still in the top 5 - I just impressed myself, AGAIN. LoL

It was a good 60' but just look how close slut was on his street tires, lol. You needed some more work with the qtp's.

[JayCizzo]

wow - I forgot about that list...can't believe I'm still in the top 5 - I just impressed myself, AGAIN. LoL

When was that? 1998?

[MGM1979]

seriously - feels like forever ago...I definitely needed more practice, but remember - that run was with a sub-par clutch - and I'm not about to take anything away from Slut, he's a good driver (a natural, almost).

[bc3tech]

http://www.redlineforums.com/forums/problems-troubleshooting/33542-hiss-after-wheel-hop-launch-causes.html#post635278

just some more examples.

[MGM1979]

http://www.redlineforums.com/forums/problems-troubleshooting/33542-hiss-after-wheel-hop-launch-causes.html#post635278

just some more examples.


I find it absolutely amazing he's got that sound pinpointed the way he does, yet he's questioning whether or not it's an exhaust leak still...I mean, if you're able to (somehow) pinpoint that sound to THAT specific of a point - what else is in that area that could possibly "hiss"...:shrug:

vintage RLF :rofl:

[Doc]

I got a 1.87 with DR's and a 1.99 with street tires. I cut a 12.97@114 with the DR's and a 13.11@109 with the street tires. I even cut a 2.02 with 20's and a 13.4@105. I raced a SRT-10 with the 20's on...I spanked his ass.

[rlinbatonrouge]

My house is now UNDER CONTRACT!!!

[MGM1979]

My house is now UNDER CONTRACT!!!

so he whores up all the active topics, gaining Casino Cash in the process...

[mrphoto103]

The lops are seemingly better around corners but the KDW's are seemingly better for straight line.

I very much agree. The lops are a good cornering tire because of A nice hard sidewall...also which makes them not as good of a drag tire imo. I picked up a set of Nexxen3000 which have a softer sidewall which is nicer for launching but shit for twisties.

I never posted, but have multiple 2.2 60' runs (2.23 being the best) and do keep my slips lol. Those were on the Lops. Actually I think that was the same night Spooner had his 2.222

I have an extra set of rims waiting and just need a few $$ so i can get my DR's

[Blue04RedLine]

I very much agree. The lops are a good cornering tire because of A nice hard sidewall...also which makes them not as good of a drag tire imo. I picked up a set of Nexxen3000 which have a softer sidewall which is nicer for launching but shit for twisties.

I never posted, but have multiple 2.2 60' runs (2.23 being the best) and do keep my slips lol. Those were on the Lops. Actually I think that was the same night Spooner had his 2.222

I have an extra set of rims waiting and just need a few $$ so i can get my DR's

Well that's kinda the point though, gotta give up one thing for another in most street tires. Stiffer sidewall will usually mean a compound also meant to grip better in corners and the softer tires will usually have the softer sidewall. I do like my KDW's though because they hold up good in the corners that I face and best of all they kick ass in the rain we get down here, which is the main reason I picked them over all others.

[mrphoto103]

I plan on using the nexxens as a daily tire cuz they are cheap and the DR's for the track. If I had the choice Id go back to the lops for my daily tire in a hearbeat compared to the nexxens. I drive/corner way to hard for the nexxens.

[Blue04RedLine]

I live in florida, I don't have anywhere to corner. :werd: I don't even have really anywhere that I need to put my parking break on. Kinda boring to drive in most places around here.

[mrphoto103]

I actually have a personal Auto x

The back side of our community has a great winding road with elevation changes. I normally get a letter from the HOA or comments from the neighbors whenever the club comes over. (Where it's at is AWAY from houses and people btw so we can blast through there from 45-60mph)